Thursday, December 12, 2019

Sogyal Rinpoche beat members of his inner circle on a daily basis and coerced young followers into sex

https://www.mandurahmail.com.au/story/6539099/dark-behind-the-mindfulness-how-a-buddhist-guru-abused-followers-on-the-hunters-doorstep/?cs=9397&fbclid=IwAR2QlOj5LbLaktzCgLbVv7HL1QbDepbzys6Q4gBcKMiGp1AR0VXFuC9cdlM

Sogyal Rinpoche beat members of his inner circle on a daily basis and 

coerced young followers into sex


SOGYAL Rinpoche was a charismatic Buddhist leader and friend of the Dalai Lama who taught the "fast path to enlightenment" for decades, and retreated to a luxury Myall Lakes sanctuary for summer with much younger girlfriends and female "lama care" attendants in his entourage.
He wrote the best-selling The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, had celebrity followers, and epitomised the idea of Buddhism as "the good religion", as Christianity struggled with child sexual abuse and Islamic extremists made war with their own people and the West.
The "incarnation of a Buddhist visionary saint" and founder of global Buddhist network Rigpa had a "lama care team" of young, unpaid female students who cooked and dressed him, slept on the floor in his room to be on-call at night, massaged him to sleep and even attended to him in the toilet.
Sogyal told followers in centres across Australia, including Newcastle, that "I do everything for your benefit. Don't resist; trust. If you resist, you're very stupid."
Now Rigpa is facing a fresh round of questions after seven weeks of prayers and ceremonies to mark Sogyal's death in August, aged 72, with only vague reference to the serious physical, sexual and psychological abuse scandal exposed in 2017 by eight former Rigpa followers, including some Australians.
Some of the abuse occurred at Rigpa's Myall Lakes and Blueys Beach centres. Rigpa's global leaders were on notice of abuse from as early as 1992, barrister Karen Baxter found in September, 2018 after investigating the allegations for Rigpa Fellowships in the United Kingdom and United States.
Legacy: Charismatic Buddhist teacher and founder of global Buddhist network, Rigpa, Sogyal Rinpoche, whose death in August has sparked fresh criticisms from victims of Sogyal's abuse. Picture: Quentin Jones.
 Legacy: Charismatic Buddhist teacher and founder of global Buddhist network, Rigpa, Sogyal Rinpoche, whose death in August has sparked fresh criticisms from victims of Sogyal's abuse. Picture: Quentin Jones.
Sogyal used attendants as "a punching bag to vent his own frustrations and anger"; "used his position to coerce, intimidate and manipulate young women into giving him sexual favours"; asked a male attendant to take film and photos of young female students and girlfriends naked; offered a female student to another lama for sex and pushed students to the verge of emotional breakdown, Ms Baxter found.
A senior male Rigpa leader from outside Australia engaged in a "proactive cover-up" of abuse allegations dating back to the 1990s, she found.
"I uphold the allegation that, for many years, there has been nobody within Rigpa holding Sogyal (Rinpoche) to account," Ms Baxter found.
Her 12 recommendations include reporting allegations to police, funding professional counselling for abuse victims, serious reforms to Rigpa's governance and structure, zero tolerance of student abuse and a ban on sexual contact between "master" and student, removing leaders connected to the "harmful events" and replacing them with people who "can credibly lead the program of changes required".
Beaten: An Australian former Buddhist nun in Newcastle to speak at a religion and violence conference. A 2018 investigation report substantiated her allegations that she was beaten on a daily basis by Buddhist teacher Sogyal Rinpoche. Picture: Marina Neil.
 Beaten: An Australian former Buddhist nun in Newcastle to speak at a religion and violence conference. A 2018 investigation report substantiated her allegations that she was beaten on a daily basis by Buddhist teacher Sogyal Rinpoche. Picture: Marina Neil.
An Australian woman and former nun who suffered horrendous physical abuse by Sogyal between 2006 and 2010, including having her ear torn by him as he raged about a calendar, said young victims of serious sexual abuse in Australia, and others who had been physically assaulted by him, had not come forward.
"Australia was where a lot of the sexual abuse took place because he said this was his retreat. It was sort of like a sex-fest for him," said the former nun, who was introduced to Rigpa in 1996 at the Myall Lakes retreat, and joined Sogyal's inner circle five years later as his household manager, aged 29.
By late 2010 she left Rigpa, and by 2017 she was one of eight people attempting to hold the organisation to account for what she believes were Sogyal's criminal acts against vulnerable people, where his abuse was excused, minimised and justified as the "crazy wisdom" of a "master" physically stepping in to point out a person's deficiencies while they were fast-tracked to enlightenment.
"I was like the abused scapegoat dog in the room," the former nun said after speaking at a University of Newcastle Religion and Violence conference last week.
"If one of his girlfriends was at their limit, he would hit me instead. Between 2006 and 2010 I was beaten over 200 times. At one stage he had fallen out with his girlfriend. He would meet her daily, come back, slam the door and punch me in the guts."
She told Ms Baxter she saw one student knocked unconscious during one of Sogyal's rages, and Sogyal bit through his own lip and drew blood on one occasion as he beat her and three other students.
Ms Baxter noted a recording where Sogyal can be "clearly heard" telling the former nun that "It's like each time I hit you, I want you also remember that you're closer to me. The harder I hit you, the deeper the connection."
Another witness told of a very young woman attendant "reduced to a frightened, jelly-like person" because of the "gruelling, ferocious, constant beatings" she received.
A male witness and close aide to Sogyal, who was subjected to severe and regular physical abuse at Myall Lakes, said the guru grabbed a metal stupa during one rage and "went to hit me in the head with it".
Author: A younger Sogyal Rinpoche speaks to followers in 1998 after the launch of his book, The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, which sold millions of copies around the world. Picture: Jacky Ghossein.
 Author: A younger Sogyal Rinpoche speaks to followers in 1998 after the launch of his book, The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, which sold millions of copies around the world. Picture: Jacky Ghossein.
"He stopped and backed off. I thought if he hit me with that... I might never get up," he told Ms Baxter.
The former nun strongly criticised Rigpa's response to Ms Baxter's report, and said the veneration of Sogyal after his death of cancer on August 28 showed an organisation failing to recognise its role in facilitating his abuse for years. The veneration was another block to his victims coming forward and seeking help, the former nun said.
Rigpa issued a September, 2018 statement after Ms Baxter's report was published, noting "allegations of misconduct" against Sogyal, but failing to record they were serious allegations of sexual, physical and psychological abuse, and the majority were substantiated.
Rigpa felt "deeply sorry" and apologised "for the hurt experienced by past and present members of the Rigpa community", but failed to make public its history of knowledge of abuse by Sogyal and the "proactive cover-up" finding against one of its most senior members.
Rigpa was "contemplating on our role as an organisation, and how we may have contributed to this situation", the global network said.
The former nun compared the veneration of Sogyal after his death with the veneration and fast-tracked sainthood of Pope John Paul II, as inquiries around the world strongly criticised the Catholic leader's role in covering-up decades of child sexual abuse.
"What Rigpa has not said anywhere is that this abuse happened, it shouldn't have happened and 'We failed'," the former nun said.
"There are people in Rigpa who have actively covered this up and discredited victims. It would be really nice if Rigpa made a clear public statement saying 'Sogyal abused many vulnerable people and we let it happen for years'.
Future: Rigpa Australia chair and retired Newcastle GP Kathryn James in 2007. Picture: Natalie Grono.
 Future: Rigpa Australia chair and retired Newcastle GP Kathryn James in 2007. Picture: Natalie Grono.
"But that's not what's happened. The moment we spoke up he was elevated even higher.
"People have identified Tibetan Buddhism as pure, that this is the one hope for religion, but that's made them blind to the fact the same things that have happened in the Catholic Church have happened here."
In her report Ms Baxter acknowledged the possibility of "many" other victims or witnesses of abuse who have not come forward.
The silence is in part due to Buddhist teachings, where speaking out against a master "appears to require a willingness to 'step off the path to enlightenment', and many are not ready to do that", Ms Baxter said.
Rigpa Fellowship Australia Inc suffered a collapse in financial support between 2017 and 2018, a report filed with the Australian Charities and Not-for-profits Commission shows.
Revenue dropped from $1.47 million in 2017 to $771,000 the following year - including a drop in donations from $507,000 to $128,000.
The Blueys Beach centre is listed in Europe as a holiday rental after Rigpa called for expressions of interest in April for the $1.5 million "sacred home", that was "blessed with the practice of Sogyal Rinpoche".
Described as "one of the most holy places of Rigpa worldwide" in a sale document, the Blueys Beach centre has been granted tax deduction status as a school building.
Rigpa Australia was "obliged to sell the property... owing to its current financial situation", the sale document said.
Warning: University of Newcastle religion and gender lecturer Dr Kathleen McPhillips.
 Warning: University of Newcastle religion and gender lecturer Dr Kathleen McPhillips.
Priority would be given to Rigpa member buyers willing to bequest the property back to Rigpa and allow visiting lamas to stay.
University of Newcastle sociologist of religion and gender, Dr Kathleen McPhillips, said she attended a Newcastle Town Hall event where Sogyal Rinpoche spoke and "it was shocking to me to see the physical deference lay people showed to him".
"In Buddhism there's no concept of God but Sogyal Rinpoche was seen as more than human."
Excusing and minimising Sogyal's assaults as "crazy wisdom", or as part of a tradition of a "master" confronting a student to help them find a "path to enlightenment", was "really dangerous" because of the unquestioning obedience expected and imbalance of power, Dr McPhillips said.
"The way in which Buddhism is viewed is that it's the 'good' religion and the answer for people wanting to live in a material society. There's a lot invested in protecting that reputation."
Ms Baxter found a senior Rigpa leader, based outside Australia, was so devoted to Sogyal that he "refused to accept the possibility that anything Sogyal had done might have been wrong".
When abuse allegations were raised the leader, from as early as 1992 and repeatedly until 2017, "was not really concerned about whether these things happened, but seems to have been prepared to accept that Sogyal intended no harm, regardless of what happened", Ms Baxter found.
Sogyal declined to be interviewed for the investigation, but in a statement in 2018 said: "I am a human being doing my best to follow the Buddha's teachings and I have never knowingly set out to harm anyone".
Rigpa Australia chair and retired Newcastle GP Dr Kathryn James said the global network's governance structure and processes meant it could not respond to questions until next week.
After the investigation report was published Rigpa leaders in the UK, Germany and France stood down, a Vision Board was appointed, a code of conduct was published and grievance council established.
In a statement in April, 2018, before Ms Baxter's report, the Vision Board acknowledged that "Some of us remain deeply devoted to Sogyal Rinpoche and will continue to follow his teachings."
This story Dark behind the mindfulness: how a Buddhist guru abused followers on the Hunter's doorstep first appeared on Newcastle Herald.


Wednesday, December 4, 2019

JULIA LYNN HOWELL·SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 3, 2018

Post from June 22, 2018

JULIA LYNN HOWELL·SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 3, 2018



I am re-sharing a “statement” I made on June 22 because recent official letters issued to community members in Shambhala only seem to be thickening with deflection and denial, so I would prefer people who care have some ‘record’ they can refer back to rather than rely on memory and speculation.

The last 6 months have been both treacherous and clarifying as conversations have unfolded, dragged on and danced around the topic of Shambhala sexual abuse. I have often thought it deserves its own unique brand. It’s as if a collective community trauma has been triggered and we are drawn to replay, revisit, deny and avoid patterns that seem so engrained to the community. I've watched, listened and engaged in these conversations both online and off— some held really close and privately, some that spread far. I have followed and at various points engaged both Project Sunshine and Shambhala Initiatives to Address Harm and the various strategies being churned up this time around. After being harassed and manipulated to ultimately STFU (sometimes asked really kindly) by ‘friends,’ court staff and various leaders (of which pretty much everyone is), after being given this “incredible opportunity” to stand in the deep river of this community’s relationship to sexual abuse and feel how its currents continue to impact me, I realize that the (false) hope I had reignited for change in December has died.

I was sexually assaulted by the Sakyong in the kitchen of the Halifax Kalapa Court after his wife, the Sakyong Wangmo, retired for the night with her first daughter, following the celebration of her first birthday in August, 2011. This experience was traumatic for me. It took place one year after we welcomed Jetsun Drukmo home on that very lawn. It also marked the one year anniversary of meeting my then partner, who stood in the same room as me that night and watched, did nothing, turned the other way. As time went on, the community’s formal responses and members’ processes of relating to this disclosure and fact have overall exacerbated my confusion and suffering and eroded my mind and body’s health. The responses and denials continue to trigger me and prevent me from moving on from that harm and I believe are preventing the community from its own “healing”. It is truly sad, hard and painful for me to admit this and I would encourage people who deeply care about this community and this family you serve to realize that nothing can change if it doesn’t begin with honesty and recognition of the facts and factors we are working with. The Sakyong’s Chief of Staff is most certainly aware of this incident of “sexual misconduct” despite what he has said to the contrary and to the Project Sunshine Mediator. Kalapa Council members know about this sexual misconduct, one of whom was supposed to be my MI around this time but never followed up. I have told several personally. And I know I am not the only one.

For me, these past 6 months have strengthened relations, turned up new alliances, softened family members and neighbors, challenged, stretched and at times snapped long-held friendships. I have wondered if and how connections with those I adore and appreciate could continue and be cultivated, how our experience of our relationships might have meaning beyond and regardless of our relationship to Shambhala. I met a lot of you through training, practicing, staffing, being socialized in and socializing as an adult in the community and with community members. And although I love you dearly, the Sakyong and his family included (and this is actually true—it’s pretty fucked up), I can't keep “doing” Shambhala and shambhala as we have been taught and are restricted to do it anymore. I know this because it forces me to twist my heart in ways I know it should not have to be twisted. I know there are many meaningful connections with those I’ve met ‘there’ and I invite you to continue to cultivate those with me without the filter of Shambhala the Thing, The Project.

Come be a friend, become a Velveteen —please do. But please don’t ask me to grapple with this experience through a Shambhala lens. Please consider the contradictions in your practice of the teachings if you have to omit the teacher. I cannot have the guru suspended from teaching duties and remove his body, speech and mind from the throne at programs where he tells me how and what to do with my mind, like you might an abusive Acharya or a sangha member. So because none of these initiatives are addressing the Sakyong and the community is not willing to include him in the remedies being touted, I have no choice but to step away. Don’t come to me and ask me to explain my experience in detail, don’t tell me write it up or file a report, don’t propose mediation, don’t try to pull me in and close to keep me quiet, don’t tell me I’m breaking samaya when it has already been broken by him. The labour required to repair that relationship from his end will require much more than a private meeting. Stop coming to me and asking me to talk about my traumatic experience in your way, or on the terms of Shambhala the organization, the vision, the Sakyong. Don’t tell me to not have any dark hidden corners of my mind and then insist Shambhala and the Sakyong need some. Don’t instruct me to lean in and visualize and dissolve into someone who deeply violated not just my physical/sexual boundaries, but who took advantage of my spiritual boundaries/experience/practice too. Don’t tell me to push myself to the brink of suicide and just accept it because Marpa was abusive. Stop accusing me of wanting the headlines, attention or money. I’ve had the unfortunate opportunity to become really familiar with all the tactics over the course of my life and I can see them — including “kindness”—coming a mile away. I will not keep grappling and replaying this by conceptualizing or justifying trauma as Tibetan crazy wisdom. I will not keep quiet and pretend it’s all ok by embodying some fucked up version of British colonial denial. But what I will do is invite you to be a friend, and I will be yours if you become real. 

Tuesday, October 8, 2019

Links to Some Public Leslie Hays Facebook Posts

Links to Some Public Leslie Hays Facebook Posts

https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddhism/comments/bsz2fr/links_to_some_public_leslie_hays_facebook_posts/

Links to Some Public Leslie Hays Facebook Posts

Links to Some Public Leslie Hays Facebook Posts
Cat story: May 6, 2018
Tabi (Cocaine): June 8, 2018
An Anniversary Recollection of my Sangyum Vows: July 20, 2018
Ciel: Jan 12, 2019

These four public posts by Leslie Hays have often been referenced here and elsewhere, but usually without the actual links, so I've compiled them.
Leslie gave me permission to share the information to Reddit when a Reddit moderator https://www.reddit.com/user/Tsondru_Nordsin
was working on a timeline of important Shambhala events
(and calendar view of the timeline, which goes back further in time)

For people without Facebook accounts who might have difficulty accessing Leslie's posts, I can post the text of the original story posts later on. For people who can see the posts on Facebook, the many comments are also informative
=====================================================
EDITED TO ADD:Here are links to the posts quoted in Tsondru_Nordsin's (former moderator)'s calendar:
This is for people who cannot see them on Facebook
55 Comments
89% Upvoted
Comment asnickyskye

Switch to markdown
SORT BY
level 1
I'm curious about how much people knew about the Sangyum from the period of time when CTR married them until his death.
I seem to recall a statement in Jeremy Hayward's autobiography about how CTR assembled a group of women advisors so that he would be sure to have the feminine point of view to take into account as he lead Shambhala. Or something like that. I recently got rid of the book so I can't go find the statement. I also remember that when I was first learning about Shambhala, someone who had been around for a long time told me (with great reverence) something similar, that CTR had a group of women advisors who were close to him and it was a very secret group. Nowadays, I have a completely different feeling about secrets in Shambhala, but back then (over 15 years ago) everything seemed pretty healthy and straightforward, and I didn't question it.
I would be interested to hear from people here who were around between 1985-87. Was it known that he was married to these women? How was this all spoken of? How was it spun later? Was this an open secret that you would find out about if you hung around the inner circle enough? Does anyone recall how this was framed in the intervening years between then and, say, last year, when Leslie shared her story?
As we all learn more and more about what has been kept secret, I'm trying to understand this one in particular. I'm trying to get a sense of whether my friends who have been in Shambhala for decades knew about this or not.
I'm grateful to Leslie for sharing these stories.
level 2
anyone i know who has been in shambhala for decades did know.
level 2
I would be interested to hear from people here who were around between 1985-87. Was it known that he was married to these women?
I still don't know that. Are you sure he officially married them? That seems to be a word that people prefer to use in order to cast an immoral light on the situation. But I never heard the word "married" about sangyums before this group. I know that at least one of them said it wasn't sexual. I remember hearing that he was taking a number of consorts, who would, in turn, have a great deal of authority. That's not the same as marriage. I didn't know what to make of it. The only comparison I can think of is Gurdjieff's "rope", which I mentioned in another thread.
So yes, it was known. But personally I was unable to find out much. I'd never heard any of the names. They seem to have all been young women who were either new or were children of practitioners. If you search you can find articles and news about the sangyums. It wasn't a secret. And later they seemed to take a more public role. I can think of a couple of things I've seen over the years, though I can't remember where I saw these. Maybe someone else will recognize them:
  1. I remember seeing an article by Agnes Au. Shambhala Sun? I'm not sure. To me it read like a childish celebration of femininity. The kind of thing a 13-year-old who loves unicorns might write. But she had a husband and at least one child. I don't know what to make of that. But Shambhala Sun and Kalapa Journal both seemed to be prone to printing a fair amount of nonsense in the guise of "upliftedness" or "some sense of elegance" pep talks.
  2. One of them had an interview, I think. I don't remember which one. She recounted how, at some kind of gathering, CTR was saying that the sangyums had authority over everyone. The Regent then said, "Except me." CTR responded that they had authority higher than the Regent, too. The sangyum in the interview said she felt awkward with the exchange because she had been babysitting for the Regent.
That was my memory of the whole thing. I didn't know a lot. I didn't care a lot. I was a bit confused by the rumor that these young, new practitioners apparently had more authority than the board of directors. But odd news was not odd in those days.
As for Leslie Hays, I'll have to wait until she gets herself a real website. I don't use Facebook and have all of their URLs in my HOSTS file. (Which is to say that no software on my computer can possibly reach Facebook. And that's the way I like it, since their spyware web bugs are on most commercial webpages.)
level 3
I have heard three different Sangyum and one of their husbands describe the marriages to Trungpa. All used the term "marriage." It was often presented, shockingly, as a triumph of Trungpa's feminism, if you can believe that. They said it was his way of undermining male-domination on the board.
level 3
They were most defiinitely and formally married to CTR, all seven sangyum.
There were formal royal wedding ceremonies, attended by all the most senior Shambhala people, and there were formal wedding certificates made and signed.
Leslie Hays posted a photo of hers.
The marriages may not have been "legally binding" by US or Canadian law, but they were definitely called marriages by Shambhala, and the terms "wives" and "marriages" were used immediately and ever since. Even though you personally did not hear them.
Also, it was definitely also sexual. What you may have heard is that CTR became unable to get an erection, due to his alcoholism, but he used various "toys" for the sex, and participating in it was most definitely part of the sangyums' duties.
level 4
Those are strong claims. I'd be interested to know more if it's true, but you don't just make wild claims like that without attribution. There's no choice but to regard it as reckless gossip in that case. In the only description I ever read it was described as non-sexual. Though it seems likely it was a different experience for each.
Out of curiosity I looked around online. It's surprising how little info is out there. The following is all I could find about the various sangyums. It doesn't read like scandal, but there just isn't much info either way. As I understand it, 2 have died. This is what I could find of the other 4.
Cynde Grieve: Seems to be still active in Halifax, married to Moh Hardin, but couldn't find details.
Wendy Freidman: Seems to be active in Boulder.
level 5
Mayayana, you say yourself in your previous comment:
"I know that one of them said...", or "I remember hearing that...".
And then you reply to onion_in_soup:
"you don't just make wild claims like that without attribution. There's no choice but to regard it as reckless gossip in that case".
My subjective impression is that you already know what you want to believe.
level 6
That's a rather ironic impression to have. I'm not the one banning undesirable facts or opinions from being stated. Most of the people here have only one purpose in mind: To find and broadcast damning facts, opinions, or gossip to support the notion that Vajradhatu, Shambhala, CTR and SMR are all part of one giant, evil, perverse, mess. Purely black and white. Good vs evil. Anyone accused of "abuse" is fair game for any accusations. Anyone making accusations must not be questioned, even if they do it anonymously. That's analogous to the witchhunting approach: Burn them all at the stake if they're accused. If they're innocent then no doubt God will save them from the fire.
I provided what attribution I could for everything that I actually know. I didn't say I remembered hearing something. You're twisting my words. In fact, I seem to be the only one providing attribution. I also searched online for any public info I could find and posted those links. You're free to inspect them for yourself. Isn't that what the Internet is good for?
I read an interview. Shambhala Sun... Kalapa Journal... I'm not sure where. Some years ago. I provided enough detail so that anyone else who's seen the same interview could give the source. In other words, I remember what I read. I just don't remember where. And I'd be happy if someone could clarify it. I'd be interested to see any kind of *confirmable* info about any of this. (I seem to remember the sangyum involved in the mentioned article being the stocky one with maybe curly, light hair. And I remember a photo of her with CTR on a golf cart. I can't say for sure that I'm not remembering 2 articles, but I do remember what I described.)
I have my own views. I try to be open-minded. I've heard the stories about cats and frankly I just don't know what to make of them. My experience with CTR and his teachings is at odds with that. I think we always have to consider the possibility that we've fooled ourselves, but I'm not changing my view based on hearsay from a handful of resentful people. My experiences with CTR and his teachings give me great faith in who he was.
What about you? Have you read my links? I didn't try to skew them. I just posted what I could find. So far I haven't found any denunciations from sangyums other than Leslie Hays. I don't know Leslie Hays. I can't see her Facebook page. (I don't do Facebook for anyone. :) Is she biased? Crazy? A fearless defender of the truth? A woman who got in over her head and didn't understand practice? I have no idea, so at this point I take no position. But that, for many here, is a position. To not stand behind her is to oppose her. Sorry, but it just isn't that simple.
This also gets back to what DKR was trying to say in the linked videos. With Vajrayana the view matters and it gets tricky. Did CTR have sex with one or more sangyums? I don't know. So far I haven't seen any info about that except the one interview I read. If he did have sex with them, is that a problem? Not to my mind. There's a difference between an enlightened master teaching a student vs sexual exploitation. Many of the people here don't see that distinction and many don't accept the premise of enlightenment itself. So it's hard to compare notes.
So my reaction to most of these stories is to reserve judgement. I only know hearsay and I know even less of the context. There are large numbers of people who are grateful and/or amazed by CTR. There are a handful saying he was a sex-addict, coke-head, kitten-torturer. How would you assess that if it were a friend, teacher, or family member of yours? Would you proudly proclaim, "I believe the accuser because that's the right thing to do!"? From where I stand, most people here are not even distinguishing between CTR and SMR. It's just one big, black pile of accusations. Witch hunt fever. The other day, thebasketofeggs was making blanket statements about Vajradhatu idealizing middle-aged men exploiting young women. But in the days of Vajradhatu there weren't even any middle aged men or younger women! We were all babyboomers... And I regard thebasketofeggs as one of the more level-headed people here.
The reckless, extremist accusations, statements and assumptions of people here don't help their credibility. More facts, less accusations, and more people making their own arguments would be more convincing to me. You think I'm close-minded? Then instead of accusing me frivolously, why not make your own case? Explain your own view and your reasons for it. Namecalling is easy. We're seeing that from the famous Mr. Remski. People admire him for his anti-cult war, but look at what he's saying to MaskAgee. Just insults and namecalling. No facts. No reasoned arguments.
level 7
5 points·4 months ago·edited 4 months ago
Mayayana, you do not need Facebook to see the original Leslie Hays posts I have referenced and linked below (which are also linked in the original post of this thread).
You could at least read the source material of the thread, which is readily available to you, before making such extensive comments.
You need to use Facebook to see the many comments in the threads about these posts by Leslie, but you do not need Facebook to read the post itself, as explained:
Here are links to the posts quoted in Tsondru_Nordsin's (former moderator)'s calendar:
This is for people who cannot see them on Facebook
level 7
No worries, I am neutral too. I am just saying that you blame someone for gossiping and I think that some of what you say should count as gossiping too, according to your standards only. And I did not twist your words, I coppied and pasted sentences from your comment.
level 7
Thank you, Mahayana for laying that out clearly.
level 5
Wendy hasn't lived in Boulder for years and she doesn't live her now.
level 6
OK. I was just posting what little info I found. That was something about her teaching something in Boulder, I think. I was surprised by how few links showed up for a search on "sangyum".
level 1
Now added:
Link to Text of Leslie Hays' public Facebook post about Ciel
(FOR THOSE WHO CANNOT VIEW IT ON FACEBOOK)
level 2
Comment deleted by user4 months ago
level 3
Me, I care. I had never read this story before.
level 3
It's like the movie Groundhog Day
Groundhog Day! What an apt simile. Because the protagonist finally, after endlessly reviewing his flaws, stops drinking, learns to be a better person, and gives up fighting the reality he is in. And that's how he breaks the loop. I find that very, very fitting in this context of rehashing the unlearned lessons of Vajradhatu/Shambhala, past and present, uncomfortable though it be.
level 1
I'd really like to encourage everyone to take the time to read through the thread that begins with MaskAgee's comment slandering Sangyum Leslie Hays. The back-and-forth in that discussion gives us a window into the tactics that Shambhala uses to stifle dissent, and while I don't think that MA is actively involved in Shambhala anymore, the tone is very familiar to me.
As you read, give thought to the difficulty of reasoning with people whose worldview is being fundamentally challenged. What a chaotic time this must be for them.
While many of MaskAgee's comments are, I believe, violations of the Sub's rules, I hope the mods will leave them up because we can learn a lot about Chogyam Trungpa's true legacy by reading this discussion.
level 2
Comment removed by moderator4 months ago
level 3
It took my mother decades before she was able to admit she had a child out of wedlock, and she was never able to talk about the abuse she suffered at the hands of her father. Yet, everyone still believes he was a wonderful man. People need time before they are able to speak honestly about what happened to them. Sometimes, the time it takes is "forever".
Thanks to Leslie, though, more and more people are speaking out. She is not alone. And she is one helluva brave woman.
level 4
Comment removed by moderator4 months ago
level 5
Speaking your truth in public, using your real name, and suffering the betrayal of people you thought were your friends, as Leslie has done-- these are not the actions of a coward.
Name-calling, slandering, and trying to bully others into silence from behind a mask of anonymity-- these are not the actions of a warrior.
level 5
6 points·4 months ago·edited 4 months ago
Why do you continue to attack Leslie with false statements? She is not the only one to speak out against CT. Do the math. Shambhala lost 60% of its membership when the allegations of pedophilia, sexual assaults, rape of men and women and illegal money management of SI came out last year. A dozen Kasung resigned, as well as other disgusted officials. Hundreds of old timers left years ago. They all knew CT and the sangyums back then.
level 3
She is not the only one, MaskAgee. Even Bill Scheffel, who had tremendous devotion and was kusung to him, admitted he heard stories of multiple stories of animal torture by Trungpa. Even Bill began to doubt...
level 4
Comment deleted by user4 months ago
level 5
I am not trying to convince you. But I have confidence in what I am expressing.
level 6
Comment deleted by user4 months ago
level 7
I don't know how well you knew him but he never spoke of you in the time I knew him. You can believe whatever you want but I have direct experience. He surely did have that devotion. It was wavering. He told me of Trungpa's own disappointment with the sangha. He told me how rigid the Boulder sangha is, that he left once and was ready to do it again.
His vision was much bigger than what many people want to think.
level 8
Comment deleted by user4 months ago
level 9
You are correct about his lack of connection to the Osel Mukpo's Shambhala world. Teachers who were unwilling to give their allegiance to him were summarily made invisible as teachers as Shambhala went forward. That was painful for Bill. I called Halifax and spoke passionately and emphatically to david brown about how much they hurt Bill and others with their narrow vision. However, Bill was not referring to that aspect when he spoke those words about rigid sangha. He was talking about the sangha world he was involved in. He experienced that rigidity upclose and personal and he saw it happen to those he loved.
level 3
"Why is she doing this do you think?"
I thought exactly the same thing before Project Sunshine, whenever I read something that was critical of shambhala. I read some blogs and thought that "these people" must be really neurotic or have too much time on their hands for spending so much time criticizing an organization that was clearly the best thing that had happened in my life. Their reaction was so weird and dissonant to me I thought they must be crazy, totally neurotic, or have some past family problems they were projecting on shambhala or any other hidden reason that would explain their strange reaction. Because I really could not see how someone could be that angry against shambhala. In every line, I only learned a bit more about how crazy "they" were.
Then, after project sunshine, I feel I started understanding that I had been manipulated for all these years, and I wanted to do something about it. What shambhala had done during all these years was so wrong, I could not just walk away and let others fall in the same trap. That reaction now seems perfectly logical to me, what was absolutely illogical to me before now makes perfect sense, and that transition was really huge for me. Also I realized that when some people used the word "cult" to talk about shambhala, for example, it was not meant to be an insult. I realized that for me too, it was simply the correct word to describe what was happening. Not an exageration meant to hurt others. And their talk suddenly seemed much less agressive and made more sense to me. But of course, if I genuinely think that so many people have been abused by shambhala, and personally I have been robbed of so much time and money, of course I do feel some anger. If you don't have that feeling about shambhala, it is ok that you don't feel that anger. But I hope anybody would acknowledge that when you genuinely think these things, it is very ok and very human to be angry and to ask for justice. And if many people keep saying that ozel mukpo is the bad guy but we should just go back to the teachings of trungpa who was the real guru, and you genuinely think he was abusive, I think it makes perfect sense to bring up the stories about him to help others not fall in the same trap. Again, I hope you will acknowledge that it is a logical reaction for someone of that opinion, even if you don't share that same opinion.
This is why I think she brings this up.
I heard cases of abused children talking to their family about how they had been abused by their father when they were younger. The reaction of the family was exactly that. "Why do you say these things about your father, he would never do that. What are you trying to achieve with this? Why do you do this?". These are absolutely textbook reactions of people facing cognitive dissonance. They can't process the information they are getting, and try to find a more rational explanation.
level 4
Thank you for describing your trajectory. Mine was not unlike yours, and Project Sunshine was likewise the trigger for me.
I heard cases of abused children talking to their family about how they had been abused by their father when they were younger. The reaction of the family was exactly that. "Why do you say these things about your father, he would never do that. What are you trying to achieve with this? Why do you do this?". These are absolutely textbook reactions of people facing cognitive dissonance. They can't process the information they are getting, and try to find a more rational explanation.
Well put. We see this every day, and it is heartbreaking.
level 1
ORIGINAL POST EDITED TO ADD:
Here are links to the posts quoted in Tsondru_Nordsin's (former moderator)'s calendar:
This is for people who cannot see them on Facebook
Cat story:
https://sleepyburrito.com/shambhala-crisis-timeline/2018/5/6/leslie-hays-recounts-a-story-of-abuse-about-ctr
Sangyum Vows:
https://sleepyburrito.com/shambhala-crisis-timeline/2018/7/20/leslie-hays-recalls-her-sangyum-vows
The Ciel story is not in the calendar, I will see about posting the text later
level 2
Comment deleted by user4 months ago
level 3
If you say that trungpa having died a long time ago is a good reason to not speak about the abuse he committed, it should also be a good reason to not speak about him being a good teacher. But if people choose to talk about him as being a good teacher, then it makes sense that other people who want to argue about that would provide arguments to the contrary.
level 3
There isn't any purpose. Just karma being karma.
level 4
Comment deleted by user4 months ago
level 5
I'm learning to love Trungpa Rinpoche without idealizing him. For me, he is very much alive, and more enigmatic than ever. I respect your devotion, I respect Leslie's anger, and I accept my own karma.