Links to Some Public Leslie Hays Facebook Posts
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Links to Some Public Leslie Hays Facebook Posts
Links to Some Public Leslie Hays Facebook Posts
Cat story: May 6, 2018
Tabi (Cocaine): June 8, 2018
An Anniversary Recollection of my Sangyum Vows: July 20, 2018
Ciel: Jan 12, 2019
These four public posts by Leslie Hays have often been referenced here and elsewhere, but usually without the actual links, so I've compiled them.
Leslie gave me permission to share the information to Reddit when a Reddit moderator https://www.reddit.com/user/Tsondru_Nordsin
was working on a timeline of important Shambhala events
(and calendar view of the timeline, which goes back further in time)
For people without Facebook accounts who might have difficulty accessing Leslie's posts, I can post the text of the original story posts later on. For people who can see the posts on Facebook, the many comments are also informative
=====================================================
EDITED TO ADD:Here are links to the posts quoted in Tsondru_Nordsin's (former moderator)'s calendar:
This is for people who cannot see them on Facebook
Tabi (Cocaine):https://sleepyburrito.com/shambhala-crisis-timeline/2018/6/8/leslie-hays-recounts-a-story-of-ctr
55 Comments
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Comment asnickyskye
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level 1
I'm curious about how much people knew about the Sangyum from the period of time when CTR married them until his death.
I seem to recall a statement in Jeremy Hayward's autobiography about how CTR assembled a group of women advisors so that he would be sure to have the feminine point of view to take into account as he lead Shambhala. Or something like that. I recently got rid of the book so I can't go find the statement. I also remember that when I was first learning about Shambhala, someone who had been around for a long time told me (with great reverence) something similar, that CTR had a group of women advisors who were close to him and it was a very secret group. Nowadays, I have a completely different feeling about secrets in Shambhala, but back then (over 15 years ago) everything seemed pretty healthy and straightforward, and I didn't question it.
I would be interested to hear from people here who were around between 1985-87. Was it known that he was married to these women? How was this all spoken of? How was it spun later? Was this an open secret that you would find out about if you hung around the inner circle enough? Does anyone recall how this was framed in the intervening years between then and, say, last year, when Leslie shared her story?
As we all learn more and more about what has been kept secret, I'm trying to understand this one in particular. I'm trying to get a sense of whether my friends who have been in Shambhala for decades knew about this or not.
I'm grateful to Leslie for sharing these stories.
level 2
anyone i know who has been in shambhala for decades did know.
level 2
I would be interested to hear from people here who were around between 1985-87. Was it known that he was married to these women?
I still don't know that. Are you sure he officially married them? That seems to be a word that people prefer to use in order to cast an immoral light on the situation. But I never heard the word "married" about sangyums before this group. I know that at least one of them said it wasn't sexual. I remember hearing that he was taking a number of consorts, who would, in turn, have a great deal of authority. That's not the same as marriage. I didn't know what to make of it. The only comparison I can think of is Gurdjieff's "rope", which I mentioned in another thread.
So yes, it was known. But personally I was unable to find out much. I'd never heard any of the names. They seem to have all been young women who were either new or were children of practitioners. If you search you can find articles and news about the sangyums. It wasn't a secret. And later they seemed to take a more public role. I can think of a couple of things I've seen over the years, though I can't remember where I saw these. Maybe someone else will recognize them:
- I remember seeing an article by Agnes Au. Shambhala Sun? I'm not sure. To me it read like a childish celebration of femininity. The kind of thing a 13-year-old who loves unicorns might write. But she had a husband and at least one child. I don't know what to make of that. But Shambhala Sun and Kalapa Journal both seemed to be prone to printing a fair amount of nonsense in the guise of "upliftedness" or "some sense of elegance" pep talks.
- One of them had an interview, I think. I don't remember which one. She recounted how, at some kind of gathering, CTR was saying that the sangyums had authority over everyone. The Regent then said, "Except me." CTR responded that they had authority higher than the Regent, too. The sangyum in the interview said she felt awkward with the exchange because she had been babysitting for the Regent.
That was my memory of the whole thing. I didn't know a lot. I didn't care a lot. I was a bit confused by the rumor that these young, new practitioners apparently had more authority than the board of directors. But odd news was not odd in those days.
As for Leslie Hays, I'll have to wait until she gets herself a real website. I don't use Facebook and have all of their URLs in my HOSTS file. (Which is to say that no software on my computer can possibly reach Facebook. And that's the way I like it, since their spyware web bugs are on most commercial webpages.)
level 3
I have heard three different Sangyum and one of their husbands describe the marriages to Trungpa. All used the term "marriage." It was often presented, shockingly, as a triumph of Trungpa's feminism, if you can believe that. They said it was his way of undermining male-domination on the board.
level 3
They were most defiinitely and formally married to CTR, all seven sangyum.
There were formal royal wedding ceremonies, attended by all the most senior Shambhala people, and there were formal wedding certificates made and signed.
Leslie Hays posted a photo of hers.
The marriages may not have been "legally binding" by US or Canadian law, but they were definitely called marriages by Shambhala, and the terms "wives" and "marriages" were used immediately and ever since. Even though you personally did not hear them.
Also, it was definitely also sexual. What you may have heard is that CTR became unable to get an erection, due to his alcoholism, but he used various "toys" for the sex, and participating in it was most definitely part of the sangyums' duties.
There were formal royal wedding ceremonies, attended by all the most senior Shambhala people, and there were formal wedding certificates made and signed.
Leslie Hays posted a photo of hers.
The marriages may not have been "legally binding" by US or Canadian law, but they were definitely called marriages by Shambhala, and the terms "wives" and "marriages" were used immediately and ever since. Even though you personally did not hear them.
Also, it was definitely also sexual. What you may have heard is that CTR became unable to get an erection, due to his alcoholism, but he used various "toys" for the sex, and participating in it was most definitely part of the sangyums' duties.
level 4
Those are strong claims. I'd be interested to know more if it's true, but you don't just make wild claims like that without attribution. There's no choice but to regard it as reckless gossip in that case. In the only description I ever read it was described as non-sexual. Though it seems likely it was a different experience for each.
Out of curiosity I looked around online. It's surprising how little info is out there. The following is all I could find about the various sangyums. It doesn't read like scandal, but there just isn't much info either way. As I understand it, 2 have died. This is what I could find of the other 4.
Valerie Lorig: https://www.chronicleproject.com/the-usual/
Cynde Grieve: Seems to be still active in Halifax, married to Moh Hardin, but couldn't find details.
Wendy Freidman: Seems to be active in Boulder.
level 5
Mayayana, you say yourself in your previous comment:
"I know that one of them said...", or "I remember hearing that...".
And then you reply to onion_in_soup:
"you don't just make wild claims like that without attribution. There's no choice but to regard it as reckless gossip in that case".
My subjective impression is that you already know what you want to believe.
level 6
That's a rather ironic impression to have. I'm not the one banning undesirable facts or opinions from being stated. Most of the people here have only one purpose in mind: To find and broadcast damning facts, opinions, or gossip to support the notion that Vajradhatu, Shambhala, CTR and SMR are all part of one giant, evil, perverse, mess. Purely black and white. Good vs evil. Anyone accused of "abuse" is fair game for any accusations. Anyone making accusations must not be questioned, even if they do it anonymously. That's analogous to the witchhunting approach: Burn them all at the stake if they're accused. If they're innocent then no doubt God will save them from the fire.
I provided what attribution I could for everything that I actually know. I didn't say I remembered hearing something. You're twisting my words. In fact, I seem to be the only one providing attribution. I also searched online for any public info I could find and posted those links. You're free to inspect them for yourself. Isn't that what the Internet is good for?
I read an interview. Shambhala Sun... Kalapa Journal... I'm not sure where. Some years ago. I provided enough detail so that anyone else who's seen the same interview could give the source. In other words, I remember what I read. I just don't remember where. And I'd be happy if someone could clarify it. I'd be interested to see any kind of *confirmable* info about any of this. (I seem to remember the sangyum involved in the mentioned article being the stocky one with maybe curly, light hair. And I remember a photo of her with CTR on a golf cart. I can't say for sure that I'm not remembering 2 articles, but I do remember what I described.)
I have my own views. I try to be open-minded. I've heard the stories about cats and frankly I just don't know what to make of them. My experience with CTR and his teachings is at odds with that. I think we always have to consider the possibility that we've fooled ourselves, but I'm not changing my view based on hearsay from a handful of resentful people. My experiences with CTR and his teachings give me great faith in who he was.
What about you? Have you read my links? I didn't try to skew them. I just posted what I could find. So far I haven't found any denunciations from sangyums other than Leslie Hays. I don't know Leslie Hays. I can't see her Facebook page. (I don't do Facebook for anyone. :) Is she biased? Crazy? A fearless defender of the truth? A woman who got in over her head and didn't understand practice? I have no idea, so at this point I take no position. But that, for many here, is a position. To not stand behind her is to oppose her. Sorry, but it just isn't that simple.
This also gets back to what DKR was trying to say in the linked videos. With Vajrayana the view matters and it gets tricky. Did CTR have sex with one or more sangyums? I don't know. So far I haven't seen any info about that except the one interview I read. If he did have sex with them, is that a problem? Not to my mind. There's a difference between an enlightened master teaching a student vs sexual exploitation. Many of the people here don't see that distinction and many don't accept the premise of enlightenment itself. So it's hard to compare notes.
So my reaction to most of these stories is to reserve judgement. I only know hearsay and I know even less of the context. There are large numbers of people who are grateful and/or amazed by CTR. There are a handful saying he was a sex-addict, coke-head, kitten-torturer. How would you assess that if it were a friend, teacher, or family member of yours? Would you proudly proclaim, "I believe the accuser because that's the right thing to do!"? From where I stand, most people here are not even distinguishing between CTR and SMR. It's just one big, black pile of accusations. Witch hunt fever. The other day, thebasketofeggs was making blanket statements about Vajradhatu idealizing middle-aged men exploiting young women. But in the days of Vajradhatu there weren't even any middle aged men or younger women! We were all babyboomers... And I regard thebasketofeggs as one of the more level-headed people here.
The reckless, extremist accusations, statements and assumptions of people here don't help their credibility. More facts, less accusations, and more people making their own arguments would be more convincing to me. You think I'm close-minded? Then instead of accusing me frivolously, why not make your own case? Explain your own view and your reasons for it. Namecalling is easy. We're seeing that from the famous Mr. Remski. People admire him for his anti-cult war, but look at what he's saying to MaskAgee. Just insults and namecalling. No facts. No reasoned arguments.
level 7
Mayayana, you do not need Facebook to see the original Leslie Hays posts I have referenced and linked below (which are also linked in the original post of this thread).
You could at least read the source material of the thread, which is readily available to you, before making such extensive comments.
You need to use Facebook to see the many comments in the threads about these posts by Leslie, but you do not need Facebook to read the post itself, as explained:
Here are links to the posts quoted in Tsondru_Nordsin's (former moderator)'s calendar:
This is for people who cannot see them on Facebook
Tabi (Cocaine):https://sleepyburrito.com/shambhala-crisis-timeline/2018/6/8/leslie-hays-recounts-a-story-of-ctr
level 7
No worries, I am neutral too. I am just saying that you blame someone for gossiping and I think that some of what you say should count as gossiping too, according to your standards only. And I did not twist your words, I coppied and pasted sentences from your comment.
level 5
Wendy hasn't lived in Boulder for years and she doesn't live her now.
level 6
OK. I was just posting what little info I found. That was something about her teaching something in Boulder, I think. I was surprised by how few links showed up for a search on "sangyum".
level 1
Now added:
Link to Text of Leslie Hays' public Facebook post about Ciel
(FOR THOSE WHO CANNOT VIEW IT ON FACEBOOK)
level 2
Comment deleted by user4 months ago
level 3
It's like the movie Groundhog Day
Groundhog Day! What an apt simile. Because the protagonist finally, after endlessly reviewing his flaws, stops drinking, learns to be a better person, and gives up fighting the reality he is in. And that's how he breaks the loop. I find that very, very fitting in this context of rehashing the unlearned lessons of Vajradhatu/Shambhala, past and present, uncomfortable though it be.
level 1
I'd really like to encourage everyone to take the time to read through the thread that begins with MaskAgee's comment slandering Sangyum Leslie Hays. The back-and-forth in that discussion gives us a window into the tactics that Shambhala uses to stifle dissent, and while I don't think that MA is actively involved in Shambhala anymore, the tone is very familiar to me.
As you read, give thought to the difficulty of reasoning with people whose worldview is being fundamentally challenged. What a chaotic time this must be for them.
While many of MaskAgee's comments are, I believe, violations of the Sub's rules, I hope the mods will leave them up because we can learn a lot about Chogyam Trungpa's true legacy by reading this discussion.
level 2
Comment removed by moderator4 months ago
level 3
It took my mother decades before she was able to admit she had a child out of wedlock, and she was never able to talk about the abuse she suffered at the hands of her father. Yet, everyone still believes he was a wonderful man. People need time before they are able to speak honestly about what happened to them. Sometimes, the time it takes is "forever".
Thanks to Leslie, though, more and more people are speaking out. She is not alone. And she is one helluva brave woman.
level 4
Comment removed by moderator4 months ago
level 5
Speaking your truth in public, using your real name, and suffering the betrayal of people you thought were your friends, as Leslie has done-- these are not the actions of a coward.
Name-calling, slandering, and trying to bully others into silence from behind a mask of anonymity-- these are not the actions of a warrior.
level 5
Why do you continue to attack Leslie with false statements? She is not the only one to speak out against CT. Do the math. Shambhala lost 60% of its membership when the allegations of pedophilia, sexual assaults, rape of men and women and illegal money management of SI came out last year. A dozen Kasung resigned, as well as other disgusted officials. Hundreds of old timers left years ago. They all knew CT and the sangyums back then.
level 3
She is not the only one, MaskAgee. Even Bill Scheffel, who had tremendous devotion and was kusung to him, admitted he heard stories of multiple stories of animal torture by Trungpa. Even Bill began to doubt...
level 4
Comment deleted by user4 months ago
level 5
I am not trying to convince you. But I have confidence in what I am expressing.
level 6
Comment deleted by user4 months ago
level 7
I don't know how well you knew him but he never spoke of you in the time I knew him. You can believe whatever you want but I have direct experience. He surely did have that devotion. It was wavering. He told me of Trungpa's own disappointment with the sangha. He told me how rigid the Boulder sangha is, that he left once and was ready to do it again.
His vision was much bigger than what many people want to think.
His vision was much bigger than what many people want to think.
level 8
Comment deleted by user4 months ago
level 9
You are correct about his lack of connection to the Osel Mukpo's Shambhala world. Teachers who were unwilling to give their allegiance to him were summarily made invisible as teachers as Shambhala went forward. That was painful for Bill. I called Halifax and spoke passionately and emphatically to david brown about how much they hurt Bill and others with their narrow vision. However, Bill was not referring to that aspect when he spoke those words about rigid sangha. He was talking about the sangha world he was involved in. He experienced that rigidity upclose and personal and he saw it happen to those he loved.
level 3
"Why is she doing this do you think?"
I thought exactly the same thing before Project Sunshine, whenever I read something that was critical of shambhala. I read some blogs and thought that "these people" must be really neurotic or have too much time on their hands for spending so much time criticizing an organization that was clearly the best thing that had happened in my life. Their reaction was so weird and dissonant to me I thought they must be crazy, totally neurotic, or have some past family problems they were projecting on shambhala or any other hidden reason that would explain their strange reaction. Because I really could not see how someone could be that angry against shambhala. In every line, I only learned a bit more about how crazy "they" were.
Then, after project sunshine, I feel I started understanding that I had been manipulated for all these years, and I wanted to do something about it. What shambhala had done during all these years was so wrong, I could not just walk away and let others fall in the same trap. That reaction now seems perfectly logical to me, what was absolutely illogical to me before now makes perfect sense, and that transition was really huge for me. Also I realized that when some people used the word "cult" to talk about shambhala, for example, it was not meant to be an insult. I realized that for me too, it was simply the correct word to describe what was happening. Not an exageration meant to hurt others. And their talk suddenly seemed much less agressive and made more sense to me. But of course, if I genuinely think that so many people have been abused by shambhala, and personally I have been robbed of so much time and money, of course I do feel some anger. If you don't have that feeling about shambhala, it is ok that you don't feel that anger. But I hope anybody would acknowledge that when you genuinely think these things, it is very ok and very human to be angry and to ask for justice. And if many people keep saying that ozel mukpo is the bad guy but we should just go back to the teachings of trungpa who was the real guru, and you genuinely think he was abusive, I think it makes perfect sense to bring up the stories about him to help others not fall in the same trap. Again, I hope you will acknowledge that it is a logical reaction for someone of that opinion, even if you don't share that same opinion.
This is why I think she brings this up.
I heard cases of abused children talking to their family about how they had been abused by their father when they were younger. The reaction of the family was exactly that. "Why do you say these things about your father, he would never do that. What are you trying to achieve with this? Why do you do this?". These are absolutely textbook reactions of people facing cognitive dissonance. They can't process the information they are getting, and try to find a more rational explanation.
level 4
Thank you for describing your trajectory. Mine was not unlike yours, and Project Sunshine was likewise the trigger for me.
I heard cases of abused children talking to their family about how they had been abused by their father when they were younger. The reaction of the family was exactly that. "Why do you say these things about your father, he would never do that. What are you trying to achieve with this? Why do you do this?". These are absolutely textbook reactions of people facing cognitive dissonance. They can't process the information they are getting, and try to find a more rational explanation.
Well put. We see this every day, and it is heartbreaking.
level 1
ORIGINAL POST EDITED TO ADD:
Here are links to the posts quoted in Tsondru_Nordsin's (former moderator)'s calendar:
This is for people who cannot see them on Facebook
Cat story:
https://sleepyburrito.com/shambhala-crisis-timeline/2018/5/6/leslie-hays-recounts-a-story-of-abuse-about-ctr
Here are links to the posts quoted in Tsondru_Nordsin's (former moderator)'s calendar:
This is for people who cannot see them on Facebook
Cat story:
https://sleepyburrito.com/shambhala-crisis-timeline/2018/5/6/leslie-hays-recounts-a-story-of-abuse-about-ctr
Tabi (Cocaine):
https://sleepyburrito.com/shambhala-crisis-timeline/2018/6/8/leslie-hays-recounts-a-story-of-ctr
https://sleepyburrito.com/shambhala-crisis-timeline/2018/6/8/leslie-hays-recounts-a-story-of-ctr
Sangyum Vows:
https://sleepyburrito.com/shambhala-crisis-timeline/2018/7/20/leslie-hays-recalls-her-sangyum-vows
The Ciel story is not in the calendar, I will see about posting the text later
https://sleepyburrito.com/shambhala-crisis-timeline/2018/7/20/leslie-hays-recalls-her-sangyum-vows
The Ciel story is not in the calendar, I will see about posting the text later
level 2
Comment deleted by user4 months ago
level 3
If you say that trungpa having died a long time ago is a good reason to not speak about the abuse he committed, it should also be a good reason to not speak about him being a good teacher. But if people choose to talk about him as being a good teacher, then it makes sense that other people who want to argue about that would provide arguments to the contrary.
level 4
Comment deleted by user4 months ago
level 5
I'm learning to love Trungpa Rinpoche without idealizing him. For me, he is very much alive, and more enigmatic than ever. I respect your devotion, I respect Leslie's anger, and I accept my own karma.
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